Are these two expressions of the security of the believer one and the same doctrine? I think that depends on who you ask. It may seem to be a petty, or perhaps even "non-issue" question, but I believe our understanding of this important doctrine is shaped by how we understand and interpret Biblical revelation, ie: the nature and character of God, the nature of fallen man, the nature of salvation and all it's components--regeneration, repentance, conversion, faith, justification, adoption, sanctification, glorification. At the risk of pinning labels on any one group, as an observation, it has appeared to me that those who hold to the expression "once saved always saved", by and large, also hold to a "carnal Christian" doctrine. On the other hand, some might lay the accusation on the reformed doctrine of "perseverance of the saints", that it implies that one might be truly saved, yet in the end, because of some lapse or failure, not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. It is my hope that some in both these camps will offer their own understanding of this doctrine, and it's implications, based on what the scriptures teach, because I believe all would agree that it is not just a matter of mere theological speculation, but one of eternal importance.
Friday, November 10, 2006
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14 comments:
Josh,
Thanks for the question. I will respond to it in the next day or so. In the spirit of being as accurate as possible, I want to dig out a couple of reference materials to be sure that I don't misquote or misrepresent anyone's statements. It may require a couple of posts to flesh out how this doctrine has been presented, how it relates to "once saved always saved", then present the reformed understanding of the doctrine of the security of the believer as stated in "the perseverance of the saints", and how I believe it differs. Hopefully, someone else will post on this, with their own understanding of it, and we can get the ball rolling on this discussion. Blessings.
Josh,
I’m still working on my references, but I’ll give the short and sweet of the carnal Christian doctrine as I understand it. I first heard of this doctrine from a man who mentored me in the faith for the first 3 years of my walk. I also encountered it again in a book which he recommended to me by Lewis Sperry Chafer (one of the references I’m still looking for), the founding president of Dallas Theological Seminary. Chafer, as well as C.I. Scofield, of the Scofield reference Bible fame, held that there are 3 classes or spiritual states of men: the “natural man” who is unregenerate (unsaved); the “carnal Christian” who is saved, but shows no change of life, bears no fruit, and is therefore indistinguishable from the natural man; the “spiritual Christian” who has made Christ Lord by way of some second experience or step. This is the best explanation I can give from memory, it having been several years since I read Chafer’s book. There are two other theologians of note who also hold to this doctrine in some form….Charles Ryrie and Zane Hodges, both of whom have connections to Dallas Theological Seminary. All four are dispensationalists, though their respective views may vary some. I’ll post more as soon as I can dig up “He that is Spiritual”, and a few other resources. At the heart of this controversial doctrine is the Lordship/non-Lordship issue. I encourage anyone reading this post to feel free to offer your thoughts. Blessings.
What do you think of the Lordship salvation question? I've been reading Faith Works by John MacArthur and it has made me think.
WTB,
Actually I don't think there's any other kind of salvation other than Lordship. Either Christ is Lord of all or not Lord at all. I don't think you can dichotomize Jesus into two separate offices. Nor do I think He can be accepted as Savior without accepting His Lordship...seeing that's who He is in His totality. My daughter who was in first grade when she came to faith put it as simply and plainly as it can be. She came home from her Christian school one day to tell me that she had accepted Jesus. Trying to be a responsible parent, I questioned her as to what she meant. She related that after her teacher had finished their Bible study for the day she had asked Jesus to save her. Having some reservations based on my own experience, I simply said, well that's great. A couple of days later I went to see my pastor and took my daughter along with me. He questioned her some, as we tried to discern as best we could if she understood what it meant to be saved. After the meeting my pastor advised me, and I agreed, that I should just let things sit a while. His advice was that if it was real, it most likely wouldn't sit still. After a few weeks went by, and we continued to talk about it from time to time as she brought it up, one evening we were having dinner, when she spoke up and said, "Daddy I want to be baptized." When I asked if she could explain to me why she wanted to be baptized, her reply, in simple child's terms was, "Cuz I want Jesus to be the boss of me." Simple, yet profound and biblical. While I still can't look into her heart and know with 100% certainty that she is truly saved, I know that her faith has remained, and she has the desire to live a Godly life in obedience. A change of affections is the hallmark, imho, of true saving faith, which will bear fruit. Blessings.
All of Grace:
points to ponder-
- OSAS proponents usually adhere to a belief in decisional regeneration, or to some form of synergy; yet while they believe that they had an active and direct part in their salvation, they can do nothing(active) to lose it, usually referring to John 10:28/Eph. 1:13 to define their position
-among OSAS proponents, there is much said about 'by grace through faith','all because of Christ', 'according to the scriptures, and 'to the glory of God' and but seldom to the extent that it is:
Sola Gracia
Sola Fidi
Sola Christo
Sola Scriptura
Sola Glorioso
-in other words salvation is a cooperation between GOD/man, security is a benefit of it, GOD is He who secures it
-Those who believe in the 'perseverance of the saints' differ in these ways:
-salvation begins in GOD's eternal purpose (Eternal Cause)
-Christ recieves for His suffering and impeccable life, a people for His name's sake, as He died as a ransom for many, satisfying the wrath of GOD (Meritorious Cause)
-GOD the Holy Spirit is He who quickens these spiritually dead unto life(monergism), empowering the appointed means of GOD, primarily the preaching of the gospel of grace (Effective Cause)
-and those whom the spirit quickens, they repent and believe, they trust and confess, they follow and obey (Resulting Cause)
-they continue in and abide in Christ, not because they have made a mere confession or decision, but because the grace of GOD has made them creatures
-He alone has shined light into the darkness of their understanding, given them new affections for Him and His dear Son, and the will that was once a slave to the god of this world and their own sinful nature is now willing to take His yoke upon them, to take up their cross, deny themselves and follow Him; they have no delusions that they stand in anything but they the sheer gracious love of GOD, and His merciful hand is what holds them.
-there is no presuming upon His grace or goodness unto them, and with fear and trembling they work out their salvation; with all due diligence and with constancy they examine themselves to make their calling and election sure
-and on their best days, they are humbled at the thought that His everlasting love looked with favor on 'a wretch like me', and that the Sovereign of the universe was 'merciful unto me a sinner'
there are likely more similarities and differences between these two, but these are just a couple of points to ponder
by the way all of grace, things is shapin' up pretty good down here for me to be stayin', LORD be willin'...hope my spellins' not too bad...aint used to typin' all literate and whatnot
NP
headoutofthesand,
The main issue of the Lordship "controversy" is that of repentance. Unless I've completely misunderstood their theology, both Charles Ryrie and Zane Hodges believe that one can be saved without repentance. They call it "free grace"...I would call it cheap grace. The idea that repentance toward God and faith in the person and finished work of Christ are the elements of saving faith, is a Biblical one. Lordship salvation does not imply sinless perfection..that is the domain of Weslyan theology and Finneyism. Nor is it a de facto rejection of the security of the believer. Those who hold to a "carnal Christian" doctrine imply this to mean one can be truly saved and live carnally as a practice or permanent state. I can find no Biblical support for this idea. Can we see into the heart of another and know with 100% certainty of their salvation or lack thereof?..of course not. The Bible does however tell us that we will know a tree by its fruit..that a bad tree cannot bear good fruit or vice versa. Other than that the Bible only instructs us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith...to make our calling and election sure...to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling...and many warnings concerning those who PRACTICE sin. A genuine believer perseveres because he is kept by God through faith till the end. That does not mean that a believer cannot falter and fail or have a "season" of backsliding...but because we are born of an incorruptable seed..God chastises and draws His own back to repentance. John McArthur brought this issue to the forefront with his book, "The Gospel According to Jesus". Here's a url to his answer to this question being posed to him.
www.monergism.com...go to the menu on the left..click on "bad theology"...scroll down to "antinomianism-no lordship"...click on the article "Is there such a thing as a carnal Christian?"
My apologies for not being able to just give a link, but for whatever reason the link won't direct to the page correctly. I hope you find this useful...btw...you don't have to give or have the answers...this is a dialogue...it's what this blog exists for. I think we can all benefit from discussing these issues. Thanks for taking the time to come by and comment...and please do come again and feel free to join in the discussions..like I said, that's what it exists for. Blessings.
newprospect,
Thanks for your post...you saved me some work..good points. I'm sorry that I won't have the opportunity to meet you, but I surely understand home. I'll be praying for God's will in your life. Keep dropping in on us and let me know how you're doing...and share your knowledge with us. Blessings to you.
ezekial,
I can agree with you on most everything you said, except that a true believer can lose his salvation. I agree that walking an aisle, praying a prayer, and being baptized does not make one a believer. I think we've done a great disservice to the gospel message by reducing salvation to a mere act. Below I've copied and pasted chapters 13-18 of the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 with the scripture proofs. This is an accurate reflection of my beliefs on these subjects.
CHAPTER 13
OF SANCTIFICATION
Paragraph 1. They who are united to Christ, effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, are also farther sanctified, really and personally,1 through the same virtue, by his Word and Spirit dwelling in them;2 the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,3 and the several lusts of it are more and more weakened and mortified,4 and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,5 to the practice of all true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.6
1 Acts 20:32; Rom. 6:5,6
2 John 17:17; Eph. 3:16-19; 1 Thess. 5:21-23
3 Rom. 6:14
4 Gal. 5:24
5 Col. 1:11
6 2 Cor. 7:1; Heb. 12:14
Paragraph 2. This sanctification is throughout the whole man,7 yet imperfect in this life; there abides still some remnants of corruption in every part,8 wherefrom arises a continual and irreconcilable war; the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.9
7 1 Thess. 5:23
8 Rom. 7:18, 23
9 Gal. 5:17; 1 Pet. 2:11
Paragraph 3. In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail,10 yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome;11 and so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God, pressing after an heavenly life, in evangelical obedience to all the commands which Christ as Head and King, in his Word has prescribed to them.12
10 Rom. 7:23
11 Rom. 6:14
12 Eph. 4:15,16; 2 Cor. 3:18, 7:1
CHAPTER 14
OF SAVING FAITH
Paragraph 1. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,1 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word;2 by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened.3
1 2 Cor. 4:13; Eph. 2:8
2 Rom. 10:14,17
3 Luke 17:5; 1 Pet. 2:2; Acts 20:32
Paragraph 2. By this faith a Christian believes to be true whatsoever is revealed in the Word for the authority of God himself,4 and also apprehends an excellency therein above all other writings and all things in the world,5 as it bears forth the glory of God in his attributes, the excellency of Christ in his nature and offices, and the power and fullness of the Holy Spirit in his workings and operations: and so is enabled to cast his soul upon the truth consequently believed;6 and also acts differently upon that which each particular passage thereof contains; yielding obedience to the commands,7 trembling at the threatenings,8 and embracing the promises of God for this life and that which is to come;9 but the principle acts of saving faith have immediate relation to Christ, accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace.10
4 Acts 24:14
5 Ps. 19:7-10, 69:72
6 2 Tim. 1:12
7 John 15:14
8 Isa. 116:2
9 Heb. 11:13
10 John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Gal 2:20; Acts 15:11
Paragraph 3. This faith, although it be in different stages, and may be weak or strong,11 yet it is in the least degree of it different in the kind or nature of it, as is all other saving grace, from the faith and common grace of temporary believers;12 and therefore, though it may be many times assailed and weakened, yet it gets the victory,13 growing up in many to the attainment of a full assurance through Christ,14 who is both the author and finisher of our faith.15
11 Heb. 5:13,14; Matt. 6:30; Rom. 4:19,20
12 2 Pet. 1:1
13 Eph. 6:16; 1 John 5:4,5
14 Heb. 6:11,12; Col. 2:2
15 Heb. 12:2
CHAPTER 15
OF REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE AND SALVATION
Paragraph 1. Such of the elect that are converted at riper years, having sometime lived in the state of nature, and therein served divers pleasures, God in their effectual calling gives them repentance to life.1
1 Titus 3:2-5
Paragraph 2. Whereas there is none that does good and does not sin,2 and the best of men may, through the power and deceitfulness of their corruption dwelling in them, with the prevalency of temptation, fall in to great sins and provocations; God has, in the covenant of grace, mercifully provided that believers so sinning and falling be renewed through repentance unto salvation.3
2 Eccles. 7:20
3 Luke 22:31,32
Paragraph 3. This saving repentance is an evangelical grace,4 whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, does, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrancy,5 praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavor, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things.6
4 Zech. 12:10; Acts 11:18
5 Ezek. 36:31; 2 Cor. 7:11
6 Ps. 119:6,128
Paragraph 4. As repentance is to be continued through the whole course of our lives, upon the account of the body of death, and the motions thereof, so it is every man’s duty to repent of his particular known sins particularly.7
7 Luke 19:8; 1 Tim. 1:13,15
Paragraph 5. Such is the provision which God has made through Christ in the covenant of grace for the preservation of believers unto salvation, that although there is no sin so small but it deserves damnation,8 yet there is no sin so great that it shall bring damnation to them that repent,9 which makes the constant preaching of repentance necessary.
8 Rom. 6:23
9 Isa. 1:16-18, 55:7
CHAPTER 16
OF GOOD WORKS
Paragraph 1. Good works are only such as God has commanded in his Holy Word,1 and not such as without the warrant thereof are devised by men out of blind zeal, or upon any pretense of good intentions.2
1 Mic. 6:8; Heb. 13:21
2 Matt. 15:9; Isa. 29:13
Paragraph 2. These good works, done in obedience to God’s commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith;3 and by them believers manifest their thankfulness,4 strengthen their assurance,5 edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel,6 stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glory God,7 whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto,8 that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life.9
3 James 2:18,22
4 Ps. 116:12,13
5 1 John 2:3,5; 2 Pet. 1:5-11
6 Matt. 5:16
7 1 Tim. 6:1; 1 Pet. 2:15; Phil. 1:11
8 Eph. 2:10
9 Rom 6:22
Paragraph 3. Their ability to do good works is not all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ;10 and that they may be enabled thereunto, besides the graces they have already received, there is necessary an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them and to will and to do of his good pleasure;11 yet they are not bound to perform any duty, unless upon a special motion of the Spirit, but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.12
10 John 15:4,5
11 2 Cor. 3:5; Phil. 2:13
12 Phil. 2:12; Heb. 6:11,12; Isa. 64:7
Paragraph 4. They who in their obedience attain to the greatest height which is possible in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.13
13 Job 9:2, 3; Gal. 5:17; Luke 17:10
Paragraph 5. We cannot by our best works merit pardon of sin or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come, and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom by them we can neither profit nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins;14 but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants; and because they are good they proceed from his Spirit,15 and as they are wrought by us they are defiled and mixed with so much weekness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God’s punishment.16
14 Rom. 3:20; Eph. 2:8,9; Rom. 4:6
15 Gal. 5:22,23
16 Isa. 64:6; Ps. 43:2
Paragraph 6. Yet notwithstanding the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in him;17 not as thought they were in this life wholly unblamable and unreprovable in God’s sight, but that he, looking upon them in his Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfection.18
17 Eph. 1:5; 1 Pet. 1:5
18 Matt. 25:21,23; Heb. 6:10
Paragraph 7. Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and to others;19 yet because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith,20 nor are done in a right manner according to the Word,21 nor to a right end, the glory of God,22 they are therfore sinful, and cannot please God, nor make a man meet to receive the grace from God,23 and yet their neglect fo them is more sinful and displeasing to God.24
19 2 Kings 10:30; 1 Kings 21:27,29
20 Gen. 4:5; Heb. 11:4,6
21 1 Cor. 13:1
22 Matt. 6:2,5
23 Amos 5:21,22; Rom. 9:16; Titus 3:5
24 Job 21:14,15; Matt. 25:41-43
CHAPTER 17
OF THE PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
Paragraph 1. Those whom God has accepted in the beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, and given the precious faith of his elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, from which source he still begets and nourishes in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;1 and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them, yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon; notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them,2 yet he is still the same, and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation, where they shall enjoy their purchased possession, they being engraved upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.3
1 John 10:28,29; Phil. 1:6; 2 Tim. 2:19; 1 John 2:19
2 Ps. 89:31,32; 1 Cor. 11:32
3 Mal. 3:6
Paragraph 2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election,4 flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him,5 the oath of God,6 the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them,7 and the nature of the covenant of grace;8 from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
4 Rom. 8:30, 9:11,16
5 Rom. 5:9, 10; John 14:19
6 Heb. 6:17,18
7 1 John 3:9
8 Jer. 32:40
Paragraph 3. And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein,9 whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit,10 come to have their graces and comforts impaired,11 have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded,12 hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves,13 yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.14
9 Matt. 26:70,72,74
10 Isa. 64:5,9; Eph. 4:30
11 Ps. 51:10,12
12 Ps. 32:3,4
13 2 Sam. 12:14
14 Luke 22:32,61,62
CHAPTER 18
OF THE ASSURANCE OF GRACE AND SALVATION
Paragraph 1. Although temporary believers and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favor of God and in a state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish;1 yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God,2 which hope shall never make them ashamed.3
1 Job 8:13,14; Matt. 7:22,23
2 1 John 2:3, 3:14,18,19,21,24, 5:13
3 Rom. 5:2,5
Paragraph 2. This certainty is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion grounded upon a fallible hope, but an infallible assurance of faith,4 founded on the blood and righteousness of Christ revealed in the Gospel;5 and also upon the inward evidence of those graces of the Spirit unto which promises are made,6 and on the testimony of the Spirit of adoption, witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God;7 and, as a fruit thereof, keeping the heart both humble and holy.8
4 Heb. 6:11,19
5 Heb. 6:17,18
6 2 Pet. 1:4,5,10,11
7 Rom. 8:15,16
8 1 John 3:1-3
Paragraph 3. This infallible assurance does not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and struggle with many difficulties before he be partaker of it;9 yet being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of means, attain thereunto:10 and therefore it is the duty of every one to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure, that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance;11 -so far is it from inclining men to looseness.12
9 Isa. 50:10; Ps. 88; Ps. 77:1-12
10 1 John 4:13; Heb. 6:11,12
11 Rom. 5:1,2,5, 14:17; Ps. 119:32
12 Rom. 6:1,2; Titus 2:11,12,14
Paragraph 4. True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as by negligence in preserving of it,13 by falling into some special sin which wounds the conscience and grieves the Spirit;14 by some sudden or vehement temptation,15 by God's withdrawing the light of his countenance, and suffering even such as fear him to walk in darkness and to have no light,16 yet are they never destitute of the seed of God17 and life of faith,18 that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart and conscience of duty out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may in due time be revived,19 and by the which, in the meantime, they are preserved from utter despair.20
13 Cant. 5:2,3,6
14 Ps. 51:8,12,14
15 Ps. 116:11; 77:7,8, 31:22
16 Ps. 30:7
17 1 John 3:9
18 Luke 22:32
19 Ps. 42:5,11
20 Lam. 3:26-31
"Salvation is not as easy as it has been represented in today’s church. It is more than a walk down the isle and a dip in the tank. Salvation is accomplished by faith, living breathing faith, proven to exist by works and fruit that flow from a daily walk/relationship with JESUS and obedience to his word."
ezekiel,
There's not one part of this statement that I can disagree with. However, no true believer can lose his salvation...he can only prove that he never had it by "dead faith", etc. It's true, the Bible teaches that it is a "narrow way" and "few there are that find it". Not the "easy believism" that is so prevalent today..but our works do not save us or keep us saved..they are the evidence that we are saved. I think it was John Calvin who said, "Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is never alone." I think much of the confusion over these issues is due to a poor or inadequate understanding of the nature of regeneration and conversion. Regeneration is a work of grace by the Spirit..not something that we can do ourselves.
12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-13
http://www.founders.org/blog/2005/10/4800-soul-salvation-scrutinized.html.
scroll down to GeneMBridges' comments. Interesting views on this subject.
allofgrace wrote: They call it "free grace"...I would call it cheap grace."
Amen!
But can there be carnel Christians? Are they not Christians in name only?
Thanks for the story about your daughter. I have a 6 year old and am going through the same thing. Is God seeking her? Is she seeing things at her Christian school and emulating them? I pray for her salvation daily.
Considering the issue of OSAS, I have problems with Hebrews 10:26. Can we deliberatly and willingly sin knowing what we know and still be saved? It says that if we do, there is no sacrifice for sin. Anyone? Help?
I think it really should be IF saved always saved.
esther,
your thinking is correct in my view...IF saved always saved...those who are in Christ will persevere, because God himself will keep them through faith till the end.
OSAS 'if' implies that we cannot be sure we possess the grace of God so neither can we be certain of our salvation and our hope. We never know until the end whether we 'be' Judas or Peter. Seems that we must to the end of our lives work out our salvation with fear and trembling. "Even the just man remains in a chaste fear of loosing God." Are we persevered or do we persevere? (if we are saints) I have to stand afar off, look down, smite my breast.
watchinghistory,
It is both...we persevere because we are preserved through faith..a living faith...the Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God...no man can give assurance...only the Spirit..the Bible never tells us to look back for assurance..the work of the Spirit in our hearts is our assurance...our seal until the day of redemption...no true child of God can lose his salvation...one can only prove that he never was saved.
1 John 2:18-19 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the anitchrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
v.21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22. and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
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