The final tally is in on the poll question, "Is the SBC in Doctrinal Decline?": 25 votes total; "Yes, definitely" 17 votes or 68%; "Perhaps" 3 votes or 12%; "Somewhat" 2 votes or 8%; "No not at all" 2 votes or 8%; "Probably, but the worship bands are still pretty cool" 1 vote or 4%. The small turnout was possibly due to voter apathy ;)
Friday, February 09, 2007
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8 comments:
I think your poll question is interesting; however, I don't know if you can quantify doctrinal decline on a denominational level. Are some churches terribly weak in doctrine? Certainly. Are some churches tremendously strong in doctrine? Of course. Have there always been churches on both extremes and all along the spectrum of doctrinal integrity? By all means, yes. So, where do we stack up against 50 years ago? Hard to say.
From a leadership perspective, I would say that most pastors and staffs are much more highly educated in doctrine than 50 years ago. Baptists traditionally despised the "academy" and most pastors had little more than a high school education, much less an M.Div., D.Min., or Ph.D. The average layperson in Baptist life is also more highly educated.
A better question might be whether commitment levels among Baptist church members is in decline. Again, this would be hard to quantify, but it is a legitimate concern.
evan,
Good to see you again. I agree your question is a good one..and one I will address as well..perhaps in the form of another poll...personally I was just interested in how average SBC church members viewed their churches on a denominational level..we all know about polls..the data is only a small sampling...but I've found the results of the few who have voted interesting. I would like to address one part of your comment:
"From a leadership perspective, I would say that most pastors and staffs are much more highly educated in doctrine than 50 years ago. Baptists traditionally despised the "academy" and most pastors had little more than a high school education, much less an M.Div., D.Min., or Ph.D. The average layperson in Baptist life is also more highly educated."
It has been my experience that a high level of formal theological education, in and of itself does not necessarily equate to doctrinal soundness. And I would also say that the lack of the same does not necessarily equate to doctrinal unsoundness...consider CH Spurgeon.
That being said....your question as to the commitment levels of Baptist church members...I think the real question concerns the low percentages of "regenerate" church members, which may account for a low commitment level...which from my admittedly uneducated viewpoint might be a reflection of what's preached from our pulpits?...just food for thought. Thanks for taking the time to drop by evan..I appreciate your thoughts.
AOG
I couldn't agree with you more!
unregenerate church members and what is preached from our pulpits . . .
In my opinion the problem is not so much doctrinal as it is in the false assumptions we make. We assume that if we have a 'word for a thing we have the thing itself.'
If it is in the Bible it is in us. If we have the doctrine, we have the experience.
Unregenerate church members are assured from the pulpit that they are saved while expecting that the same gospel will appeal to sinners.
Sinners are brought into the fold of the unregenerate and the tide of religious debauchery increases.
I would have to disqualify myself from saying that my answer is unbiased, for in the past myself and family have been treated as dogs by more than one southern baptist church, have been undermined by denominational authority on a local and state level, and while we were still trying to hang on by a miniscule thread, were ignored repeatedly by the lone orginization that I thought might take an interest in our plight (sorry AOG), 'The Founders'.
(But I still like reading their material)
Nevertheless, because one is biased does not mean that one is ignorant. The question 'is the SBC in doctrinal decline' will be answered according to which 'doctrines' you believe. If you believe the doctrines that most sbc churches promote and believe today and have for the past 40 years, then your answer will be no. If you believe the doctrines that nearly all sb's believed in 1845(the time JP Boyce), then you will certainly say that it is doctrinal decline.
When I was a young preacher, I heard a minister from the pulpit make the following statement about election; (in his words), quoting the "great" Hershel Hobbs(this is best my memory serves); 'You young preachers don't get confused about election; it can best be summed up like this--God casts his vote for you, the devil casts his vote for you, and you cast the deciding vote.'
I have since heard that quote attributed to others, but also attributed to Hobbs. His being an influential voice in baptist life, polity and literature (we are told, I wasn't born yet), it is said to be a monumental marker in the decline of the preaching of the doctrines of grace from southern baptist pulpits and the rippling effect would nearly completely extinguish it from southern baptist press and literature.
Back to the preacher and his quote...I was young and impressionable, but I wasn't stupid. I didn't have to look up a single verse of scripture to know that the 'line of bull' he was pushing wasn't in the bible. I went home and read all I could about election, and you know what, the Lord wouldn't open my eyes fully to it for another 3 years. What did I do in the meantime? I didn't say a word about it. If I didn't own a truth in my heart, I wasn't going to preach it, but I certainly wasn't going to preach against something that I had 'little light' on.
I certainly do not confess to have all the answers now, but I do know that much more glorious light has been shined in my heart than ever before and I believe continues to shine each day...May the Lord cause it to always be!
For those who sincerely seek the truth, may the Lord be merciful and give them eyes to see and ears to hear...may he give them a heart of flesh and open their mind to understand. In fact, it is the Lord who gives the truth seeker's heart.
But there are those, who like the pharisees in Christ's day, have light in their mind and darkness in their hearts. They see the clear precepts and implications of the scripture, yet they deny the truth for 'filthy lucre's sake. They much more desire the praise of men than the approval of God. They have counted the cost of preaching the ' the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints', and they have found it to be too great. These are not 'seeking' the truth, but are 'willingly ignorant' or blatantly ignoring the truth. They preach 'another Jesus' and do so willingly and deliberately! But rest assured, God is not mocked!
One may say, your words be to harsh...the same may have that opinion of these words...(Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity)
When the president of the sbc argues against the true gospel of Christ (DoG's), it is safe to say that it's convention is not only in doctrinal decline, but in doctrinal apostacy.
And what of those churches who go against the grain and once again preach those 'Calvinistic' doctrines? Will they be rebuked? Will they be put out of the convention, as some have predicted?
As China Shop Bull likes to say, "I'm not a prophet", but it's safe to say that these 'reformed' baptist churches will remain unmolested; that is until they stop giving big $$$ to their 'popish' apostate convention head.
amos,
I have to agree. Doctrinal decline can only be seen in one light imho. It's not something that's relative...only in the sense of how our doctrine relates to Scriptural revelation..not how one "system" of doctrine relates to another. Men reject the doctrines of grace because they're prideful..they like to think that they can defy the order of things and make the "tail wag the dog" so to speak. It's much easier to give lip service to God's sovereign perogatives than to actually bow before them and call Him Blessed.
None of us has it all figured out amos...at least I don't..and like you said...the light grows brighter the more we seek to know the truth. ..He truly is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him, because it is He who works in them to seek after Him...all the more reason to bow before Him and give thanks for His unfathomable grace.
The LORD takes care of his own, amos. As long as you seek to serve Him, He will provide a means for you to do just that...I believe that with all my heart. I'm sorry you've had to endure so much scorn for following the convictions the LORD himself has laid on your heart..but then that's how it's always been..He never promised us an easy path...they hated Him..they'll hate you and me. But all things come from His hand, even the hard things. "Humble yourselves therefore under the might hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time." 1 Peter 5:6
The SBC is in doctrinal decline from where I sit..of course I know that a multitude will disagree...another great crowd will be absolutely livid at the statement...so be it.
Aog,
As usual, your posts are articulate, gracious, and truthful.
I want to apologize if it seems I have mentioned too often my past treatment by the SBC. It seems I went too far to make a point. I would not want you or any other to think that I am complaining about the providence of God...to the contrary...I praise Him for his deliverance, his provision along the way, the faithfulness that has been faith building to me and my wife, and to the exact place He has us now. I would not want to be any other place on earth!
I also would like to share a couple of observations; they could easily be sent to you by email, but I would prefer they be for public consumption in the hopes that they be of some benefit to someone else, and I also believe that others will agree.
This blog is, I believe, a blessing, to not just me, but to others also. I do not blog (nor have I ever, except for newbbcof) anywhere else. The topics of discussion here, the tone of those discussions, and the knowledge and insight of those discussions are of great benefit to anyone who visits here. There are no aces or any with rank opinion or snide remarks.
I have no secrets...I live with ADHD(which is one reason why the radio ministry is so challenging)...I always denied it, though those closest to me(I was driving my wife crazy) lovingly exhorted me to seek medical advice/treatment. After I finally did, (and though I was against it at first) I found out there were medications that could help. And they did (and do) tremendously, though some days are more tumultuous than others. (Today was a great day I might add) I say that because it has been very therapeutic to(focus and) share my thoughts concerning He whom I am most passionate about, and this forum has provided not only a platform and outlet to do so, but it has forged friendships that would have otherwise gone undiscovered. I would have never known anything of Jake, nor you that he has more writings out there.
Time and time again, you reveal much about yourself(though not deliberately) and often assist, inform, or encourage others with no other agenda but to exalt the Lord and edify believers. I dont believe you have talked about your age, but I would believe that you are a little older than myself (36 yesterday); you display wisdom, passion, and patience far beyond that of the average pew warmer. China made the comment about me having some 'bulls' in my congregation. I told him I have one. But I also have a man that reminds me remarkably of you. He is 49, has the disposition and knowledge of every elder/ deacon / bishop you hear of described in the bible, and has become one of the dearest people in my life, and is a blessing to our church. You have spoken of having someone to hold you accountable; to me, he is that one, and vice versa. He respects me as his pastor, but being aware of my HD, is not afraid to pull me off to the side and help me 'reign things in' and show me if I have erred. He is humble enough for me to do the same. (When I cant, he preaches)
I have said many things to say this; you recently spoke of attending a church...I cant remember the name...maybe South Wood or South Hills?...if the Lord in His timing leads you to become a member, then I encourage you to befriend the pastor and let him know who you are. Meet with him and discuss 'the deep things of God'. Any pastor would be blessed (and thrilled) to have someone in his church who has a passion for Christ, a grasp of 'high doctrine', and a thirst to keep growing.
I dont know if you have taught before, but a man with your insight, demeanor, and wisdom ought to be teaching and instructing the next generation of twenty-somethings concerning the sovereign grace of our Lord. Whether you are aware of it or not, you do this already on this forum on a regular basis with any who visit. Friend and foe alike in these forums are drawn to your keen view of things, and I could only imagine what you could do face to face.
I do not say these words to feed your pride(and I know that they wont), but this is just an observation that I had to share. I also believe that I am not the only one to share this opinion. As there is a shortage of true preachers, there is equally a shortage of those true teachers. I just believe that you have that gift. I hope that the Lord gives you the medium in one of His churches to exercise this gift for His glory and for the equipping of His saints.
I pray that nothing I have said has offended, for I have only spoken in love that which was on my heart. Have a great day in Lord.
Blessings
Amos
amos,
First off, there's no need for you to apologize for anything. We all have our scars and wounds..no one gets through this life unscathed, and if this forum provides a place for you to talk about those things, then so be it..I'm fine with it. Secondly, just so you know, I'm personally blessed by your posts here, as I'm sure many others are as well. Not many in this day and age are willing to share much of themselves, and you, like Jake, have been refreshing exceptions to that, so from me to you..thanks.
You're also very perceptive, I am somewhat older than you (happy b'day btw). I'm just past the half-century mark in age. Age itself does not necessarily equal wisdom, but I am at that point in my life that the psychological theorists would call the "legacy" years. That time of life when there is a sense of need to begin to pass along whatever wisdom or knowledge the LORD has been pleased to grant. Perhaps I seem wise because the LORD called me to Himself late in life (I was one year older than you are now), and had spent a good portion of my adult life in the world, tasting of all it had to offer, so I've seen and experienced much, both good and bad, and have seen the darkness face to face and the depths of man's...and my own depravity...both potential and actual. Perhaps that's why Sovereign Grace was such an easy thing for me to accept...I knew by GOD'S grace just how depraved and dark my lost soul was...perhaps that's where patience comes from as well, having been in darkness so long, and understanding the blindness that is inherent in us as fallen creatures. When GOD drew me to Himself, under Holy Spirit conviction not only of my sins and my sin, He made me understand also my utter helplessness to do anything for myself...I remember vividly the cry from my heart, much like Augustine's of old..."Lord have mercy on me and do for me what I cannot do for myself..change me". He showed me that I could not repent or believe in my own strength, and in His great grace and mercy heard my cry and enabled me to turn from my sin and cast my all upon the Lord Jesus, my propitiation, and only hope. So if I have anything worthwhile to share...any wisdom to pass along...it is only what I've received from Him..even what I've gleaned from all the years in darkness...because even during that time, He was in complete control..building me according to His purposes, and at the appointed time, brought me out of darkness into the light...for such a time as this.
You also pegged me as a teacher..correct again. I was a teacher for a time, and will always be a teacher at heart, whether or not I do so formally. I stepped down from teaching in the church where I was, because of some struggles I was having...I have severe bouts of depression from time to time..I was amazed to discover some of the great leaders of the church in past times struggled with it as well...Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon to name two. I was also struggling with the issue of enjoying the adulation a bit too much. All praise, glory, and honor belongs to GOD alone, and I fear Him enough to know that if I couldn't get a handle on that, I should step down before He brought me down.
I have had a close friendhip with a former pastor of mine...and you are right..he told me once he appreciated having a "sounding board"...someone with whom he could just be himself with and not just as my pastor. But someone to share the deep things of the word with, and the thoughts of his own heart. GOD granted me the opportunity to preach once..to this day I don't understand why He laid that on my heart and provided that opportunity...but I do know this much...I gained an understanding of what it's like to feel the burden..the awesome responsibility of standing before the people and proclaiming His word. A preacher expends the energy of an 8 hr day in the short span of 35-40 minutes. Such is how it is when one preaches under the annointing of the Spirit...there's a tiredness afterwards...but an energizing kind...if that makes any sense.
Anyway amos, thank you for your kind words, and I'm thankful that this blog is a blessing and a help to you...I hope that it is for others as well..it is my heartbeat for the people of God, and especially His people called Baptists, to become conversant in His word, and learn to draw out the great depth of riches contained in it. That's why this blog exists, and my prayer is that He will bless it and use it to His glory and the good of His people. Blessings.
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